How to Be Present With – and Respect – Your Fear Under Saturn-Pluto


Fear tends to rise in the collective during Saturn-Pluto cycles, like the one we’re in now with the Saturn- Pluto conjunction in Capricorn, which is at play throughout 2020. Jessica Lanyadoo and Tony Howard discuss the role of fear and its message, how it correlates with this moment, and how to manage it wisely.

How to Be Present With – and Respect – Your Fear Under Saturn-Pluto Transcript

Tony Howard: This is the Astrology University podcast, helping you find inspiration, insight and connection through the study of astrology, and I’m your host, Tony Howard. I’m really excited to have Jessica Lanyadoo with me today, and we’re gonna talk about the very light subject of fear and panic.

Jessica Lanyadoo: It’s one of my favorite topics. I’m so happy to be talking to you about it. As a triple Capricorn, I don’t like to brag but I’m scared of everything. And I love to panic, panic all the time.

TH: Right. So of course if you folks are listening, if you’ve watched the news at all you may have noticed some correlations with the Saturn and Pluto conjunction in Capricorn, that was exact in January, we’ve had some lead up to it, we had some previews of it last year. And we’re in the thick of it this year, because even though those planets have separated a bit and Saturn is gonna go into Aquarius for a little bit, which we’ll talk about today as well, Jupiter and Mars are joining in the mix and Saturn is gonna go back into Capricorn so we’re not really done with that energy this year.

TH: You might have noticed a little bit of fear and panic out there, which is really part of one of the potentials of this signature. So we’re gonna talk about that today, and hopefully by the end of the podcast today we’ll also give you some useful tools that you can work with yourself to manage and be present with your own fears, so stay tuned for that part as well.

TH: But I thought Jessica, we could just talk about, you and I have both had people coming to us saying things like, “Did you see this coming?” And I was wondering what you think about that, how you’ve responded to it. What’s the value in that question to astrologers?

JL: I think it’s a very natural question to ask of an astrologer because we are uniquely positioned to look at the past, the present and the future kind of all at once. And I don’t see the value, outside of a scholarly inquiry, in predicting these things, or unless we’re talking about preventative measures.

JL: I am hesitant in general and in public I think, to talk about what will happen, but instead I like to focus on what we can do now given the evidence we have. It could be in the context of the evidence of how these transits are playing out, but I hate to abandon common sense and I hate to abandon looking at the news and listening to people who are experiencing the world. I think using astrology to support and contextualize those things is really useful, but using astrology to explain it away or distance yourself from the feelings that are triggered by real life is not especially helpful or useful, and it is what I try to avoid. So I don’t know if I even fully answered your question.

TH: You did. I really love the statement from Richard Tarnas, that astrology is archetypally predictive and not concretely predictive. We could talk about using astrology for prediction all day. In private, we astrologers, we do sort of go down that road, we think about what could happen under a specific transit, but these are all just a part of an archetypal soup that we kind of mix together, right?

TH: And like you said, there is value in it in terms of being prepared for some of the worst things that we think are potentials, but just because we think those things are in the realm of that archetypal pattern, for instance, the Saturn, Pluto in Capricorn has a real specific kind of vibe to it, it’s not Jupiter plus Uranus in Sagittarius for instance, it’s a little different.

TH: So we can describe these things and what they’re about but when we say like, “Oh, I see a pandemic coming in January,” we could look at previous cycles and see that pandemics did occur when there were certain alignments, but there are many many variables at play and no chart is ever the same, and life is consistently unfolding anew in every moment just like in every moment there’s a new chart.

JL: And I would add to that, like, astrologers do not have the kind of influence and power over medical conversations or scientific investigations or governmental agencies. I don’t really resonate with the concept of archetypes and I don’t work exactly with archetypes exactly.

JL: Richard Tarnas is a genius, I’m not disagreeing with that at all, I just myself I’m such a Capricorn. But I will say that if I believed that making these kinds of predictions could have some sort of value, some cause and effect over the way society is managed, I would take a different approach, but because we’re speaking to people who are interested in the world and living their lives, I think it’s a different kind of conversation. We’re having a psychological and emotional impact that can directly impact behavior of individuals, maybe even small groups but not large groups, right?

JL: And I think that that’s a valuable part of this conversation. I also would just kinda like add in that because we astrologers are as impacted and vulnerable to world events as everyone else, we cannot be objective in the same way. So when we’re talking about a pandemic or an authoritarian regime or things like that, like an election, nobody is objective.

JL: We all have inherited issues from our parents and grandparents, from the environment we were raised in, from the class background we have. And we also have our own fears as adults and are the ways that we tend to be cavalier in all the things, and to pretend anything otherwise would be irresponsible, I think. It’s also part of why I don’t think it’s terribly useful or wise to be running around town predicting world events that we actually cannot influence. I think it just creates panic, and I don’t think that’s useful.

TH: Such a great point. I mean, there were a couple of astrologers who predicted a terrorist attack within actually a very small window when 9/11 happened. But just like you said, that obviously didn’t prevent it from happening. Right?

TH: And even if they were the most masterful astrologers with the best techniques. But one of them, I know her work and although she predicted it in that window, she predicted it in several other windows that year, and she continues to do that every year. And this is where I wanna go next is that it’s more valuable to look at the astrology of the moment and to look at the events that have unfolded and to use astrology as a way to think about, ruminate on, and respond.

TH: So to that end, what kinds of things are you sharing with people in terms of responding to this energy that’s arising right now? And let’s just kinda talk a little bit about what WHO has just called a global pandemic.

JL: So WHO, which is the World Health Organization in case you don’t know, has called the coronavirus or COVID-19 a global pandemic. Also, in the United States we have the Democratic primaries, we have the risk of Russia interfering in American elections. We have a lot of things happening in our government, in our messy bench of a government. And within all of this, my first and most important take is, stay associated and remember that you are a community member, that we are interconnected.

That is where I start because it’s easy to become overwhelmed and hypochondriacal, or obsessed with politics or with pandemics or whatever it is. But if we kind of understand that it’s not just about me and you, it’s about all of us, and there are ways that you can stay informed and stay activated. So in the context of “democracy” or in the context of politics, I think it’s about voting, showing up, talking to people, being… Listening to people, I think that’s one really valuable approach.

And then when it comes to COVID-19, I think it is first and foremost, I say as an astrologer, listen to scientists. Trust medical professionals. Have critical thinking and discernment when you reach out for news and education, and use common sense. I think that’s a really important first step that some people are surprised to hear from astrologers, but I think of us as a very reasonable demographic.

I think science and astrology are not in any way antithetical to each other, and often we reinforce each other. And so I would like to uphold and reinforce the wisdom and expertise of organizations like the World Health Organization. That’s my starting point, is pragmatism, surprising no one because I’m a Capricorn.

TH: Well, and on that note, I also wanted to cover fear from the angle that it could sound a little bit like when we’re talking about fear as if it’s unwarranted, but one of the reasons why people are very frightened is because a lot of people have died already and a lot of people will die from this, and there’s a palpable fear of death that really just correlates quite well with Saturn and Pluto being in Capricorn. The fear of death, like the literal fear of death. And the fear of death is one of the most compelling fears that we humans have.

I think I’ve read that the fear of humiliation is either stronger or just as strong as the fear of death. I find that really interesting, but that’s not what we’re talking about today. But this is a very real thing, this fear. And so I don’t wanna downplay or diminish anyone’s fears, but on the same note, a lot of us will survive this pandemic, most of us will survive this pandemic, thankfully, and some of us will lose loved ones, and some of us will maybe get close to the edge ourself.

So knowing that, what’s the message here with Saturn and Pluto? What are some ways… I always think about the planets describe the problem but also the solution is contained in there as well. Or at least if not a solution, because not all of us wanna be solutions-oriented, but a way of being present with those energies and responding with awareness and intelligence and intention. What are some of the things that you’re recommending on that level?

JL: Well, can I add to the fear for a second? Not to brag, but I have a much longer scroll. When you say that people aren’t solutions-oriented, my jaw dropped when you said that. But again, I’m a triple Capricorn and that’s my viewfinder. But in terms of what I’m scared of, I mean, I am scared of human suffering on such a massive scale. I’m very scared of suffering, I’m not scared of death myself as a medium.

But what I am terrified of is the collapse of infrastructure, and people not having access to groceries or medication, people having to rely on the government. As a queer person, as a person, like I’m always thinking about vulnerable populations. And in particular, in the context of this, what we’re seeing in the US is police in riot gear showing up to enforce quarantines.

That’s how it’s being enforced. So if you want to be scared about something practical, I have some suggestions on the list. If you are a person of color, if you are a woman, if you are a queer person, if you are a person of… I could name a lot of different demographics that are especially vulnerable to police and don’t necessarily feel safer with police. I mean, these quarantines are enforced militaristically.

And unfortunately within authoritarian regimes, which we are seeing a rise and spike in, globally, internationally, this is something that they seize on, is chaos and fear. And they start making laws, and our civil liberties get eroded. And so I think that that’s a really… And I don’t know if you can hear emergency vehicles right now in the background?

TH: Speaking of the emergency.

JL: I know. I was just like, “Oh, the irony.” I mean, usually I would stop talking when you can hear something like that but I’m like, “Oh, but it’s actually perfect.” It’s like punctuation. It’s like, “Thank you Jesus, thank you for participating in this podcast.”

But yeah, I mean, I think that those are very practical things to be concerned with, and for me they’re incredibly motivating to self-quarantine when I have sniffles. It’s incredibly motivating for me in terms of responding to fear.

TH: You’ve thrown out a lot of things that are directly relevant to the correlation with Saturn and Pluto, and I just wanna call those out to some people who are maybe new to astrology and don’t have a full range of understanding of what each planet can represent. And when Jessica was talking about self-quarantine for instance, I mean, that involves taking personal responsibility, which is kinda classic Saturn in Capricorn.

TH: So taking responsibility for yourself, whiling yourself off to protect other people, doing the grown-up thing, that’s a Saturn response, right?

JL: That is. It is. And Pluto in Capricorn as well. It’s understanding the interconnectedness of us all. So for me since January, I have been collecting emergency supplies for a three-week or more quarantine, and I’m not just thinking about it as an individual, I live with one other human adult and a couple other cats, cat friends.

But I’m also thinking about collecting some resources that I can share with my neighbors who are homeless, or if other neighbors of mine need help. I’m not just thinking about myself, I’m thinking what can I afford? And I don’t just mean financially afford, I mean like what can I afford to do, what can I psychologically, what can I behaviorally plan around?

I think donating money if you have money to local food banks is really important, because as people become quarantined or can’t go to work because things get shut down, like the whole restaurant industry and tourism industries are being decimated right now. I mean, I had five live events scheduled for my book release which just came out at the start of 2020, and I cancelled them all of course, of course I did, because it’s not responsible, it’s not ethical to bring people together en masse at this time. But my whole income wasn’t reliant on it, and for many people their incomes are reliant on it, so how are they gonna eat?

And I think being kind of globally-minded, being a good community member, whether we’re talking Saturn in Capricorn or Saturn in Aquarius, I think both of those transits want us to consider ourselves as members of a society who take responsibility for our participation. I think it’s really important to be able to recognize that some of us can help in material ways, some of us can help by writing, some of us can help by shutting the fuck up and listening, like there’s lots of different ways that you can participate.

And I think it’s about prioritizing what action will help with your anxiety, because action is the antidote to anxiety. And sometimes the action is really, it’s like a self-soothing thing. And sometimes the action is material. For me, when I’m really stressed, I’ll paint my house. Like a crazy person maybe. But that is something that really calms my brain is doing something kind of mindless and material that I have to finish, so it has a start and a middle and an end. And for my brain that really works.

Now, not everybody is a Capricorn and wired in the way that I am and has paint lying around the house, but there are different ways of doing it, and the point I’m kind of trying to make by sharing this stupid random thing I do is, you can find your own stupid random thing, it doesn’t have to be the thing everyone else is doing, there’s not a right or a wrong, it’s about what soothes you so that you can still be a member of society, so you can engage with your fear responsibly.

TH: Saturn is moving into Aquarius and just very soon, I think probably when we’re gonna release this podcast if not shortly after on March 21st, at least depending on your time zone. And that’s gonna shift the energy a bit. And what are some of the ways that you’re hopeful that the energy shifts, and what are some of the things that you’re afraid of with that shift in energy?

JL: The concept of… What is it? Is it “self-containment”, is that the term that’s being used? Self-containment?

TH: Yeah. And containment is… It’s so interesting if you’re thinking about Saturn and Pluto in Capricorn. Yeah.

JL: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s like self-isolation, or there’s like I think I’m blanking on the specific word, but that is to me exactly what I would expect to see in the couple of weeks leading up to Saturn in Aquarius. And I think the transit of Saturn through Aquarius, when we know it’s gonna retrograde back into Capricorn and then do its thing, is different than it doing its thing, right?

So I think there is that to consider. This is kinda like pre-game show stuff a little bit. But something that you and I were talking about is how the last time Saturn moved through Aquarius, it was in the early 1990s and in ’91 is when the first world-wide web business went public, right? It was the birth of… I think Google was born at that time too, was it not?

TH: I don’t know about that one, but definitely in August 6, 1991. I don’t have that on the top of my head folks. I’m reading from my notes. I am a nerd but I’m not that kinda nerd. On August 6th, 1991, the first www web browser, and there’s a lot of moments in history with the internet, but www, which you might have noticed at the top of your URL, was launched during Saturn in Aquarius. And Saturn in Aquarius also correlates with other moments in the past where we become more and more connected with each other around the world.

JL: Yeah, and in some ways, more and more isolated, because Aquarius is a sign that is related to individualism, and so, as we have more connection to the world, do we become more self-interested, do we interact with people who are in front of us less? This is, I think an ongoing question that people have around the internet, and I think we’re going to see that question.

And as again, we are being asked to self-contain, to quarantine, or to consider and prepare for quarantine, having that happen during Saturn in Aquarius, I think will bring up a lot of things.

What I was really thinking about with this Saturn in Aquarius transit in a time where many of us self-quarantining, is that we will be connected to other people, we will be connected to news, we will be connected to media, we will be able to connect with people like video-chat and all this kind of technology that didn’t exist before, and we will be able to use it. It will help us stay connected and part of a larger community, which I think is really interesting.

But within that, for me, there’s questions around privacy, our net neutrality, the freedom of the press, and I see these things as really relevant to Saturn in Aquarius. I don’t know if you do as well, Tony, but I see them as related to, again, civil liberties within the system that we have, personal privacy, personal freedoms. These are to me, deeply related to the Saturn in Aquarius transit. I don’t know about you. Do you see it that way as well?

TH: Well, when I’m thinking about any new planetary ingress, and that’s just when a planet changes signs, I’m thinking about the light and the shadow. What can transpire? And I do think that we have to think about, with Saturn being in any sign, the dark side of control, relative to what that sign might symbolize. So yeah, for sure, a lot of us think that Aquarius has something to do with the internet, at least in terms of connecting humanity, if nothing else.

One of the things I’m kinda hopeful about, is that maybe scientists’ voices will get elevated a little bit. Kinda hoping that somebody here in the United States says, “Hey, powers that be, scientists are actually pretty cool and they know what’s up. Maybe you should start listening to them.”

JL: I mean, fingers crossed, although what’s happening right now in the United States and with the CDC is really terrifying. It is quite the opposite of that. It’s quite the opposite.

TH: It is so terrifying. I was on the CDC website last night and they didn’t even have the right up-to-date statistics.

JL: Correct. Well, Rachel Maddow reported, sometime around the 10th it was, of March, that there was a whistleblower from within the CDC because the CDC scientists recommended that older people, and they didn’t specify the age as far as I’m aware, but older people should not be flying in commercial airlines right now. And the White House was like, “We don’t like the optics of that. We are deleting it.” And so within the CDC, there was a whistle-blower, one whistle blower, not 100, unfortunately, one whistle-blower.

TH: That’s because there’s only three people that still work there.

JL: Sweet Jesus. So scary, so scary. But that’s the reality, is that I don’t think that the CDC is a reliable resource, which is not to say that I don’t think that the scientists and doctors working at the CDC aren’t a reliable resource, but I don’t think that we have access to information. And again, I think that Saturn in Aquarius does relate to being able to rely on data, but also one of the things that I see is related is that we have a couple eclipses happening in the Sagittarius-Gemini polarity and so I’ve been really concerned for 2020 and this, “Fake news propaganda problem.”

And again, it’s related to the rise of authoritarianism globally, and I think we haven’t seen in the Western world, a lot of the internet being compromised yet, but I fear that it is coming, and it will take outcry from the people for it to change.

TH: Definitely, definitely. And for folks who are newer, new-ish to astrology, Jessica is making that connection between those eclipses being in Gemini and Sagittarius because there’s that connection now with information and the news, and so that’s why she was kinda going in that direction there. But one of the things, I mean another positive I think about something you just said a few minutes ago about being connected in this way, even though we might be isolated and quarantined at home, this is a new experience for us.

In the past, if we were quarantined at home, we might have no idea what was going on outside of us. We might just be seeing the police or whoever’s enforcing the quarantine, telling us, “Stay in your house.” And now, we can be in our house and be completely connected to information at least, and we can communicate with each other.

And even though there is a massive amount of terrible information on the internet, the truth is out there, and we have access. Luckily so far, knock on wood, and hopefully it’ll stay that way, but who knows, still have access to news in other countries. So we can get other perspectives, we can get other viewpoints, we can see how it’s being reported in Italy versus how it’s being reported in the UK, versus how it’s being reported in Australia or wherever. And that’s really really useful, it’s really useful to get those different vantage points, and we can do that all from the privacy of our own homes.

JL: Yeah. And if you are stuck at home, somebody DMed me today, and said to me, she was like, “I’m a Virgo and I have a hard time with people to begin with, and I’m a total introvert. And you wrote a horoscope.” She was saying I wrote a horoscope saying, “Be reliant on others, stay interconnected.” And she was like, “That’s really hard for me on a normal day but now that everything is contagious, it’s really hard for me.”

And my response to her was very much relevant to this conversation, which is, you don’t have to leave your home, you can wear plastic mittens. You could put yourself in a bubble if you want to and still Skype with people. You can join message boards, you can listen to resources that inspire you, you can participate in the world from the comfort of your own home.

Please wipe down your devices. Please keep on washing your hands, take preventative healthcare measures. Do all those things, and also, you don’t have to leave the house. And Saturn in Aquarius, you probably won’t. And that’s okay, that’s okay. I think that there’s a way that… And again, this is, for me, related to Saturn moving back into Capricorn ’cause this is only a limited time situation, the Saturn in Aquarius.

TH: Like three and a half months, if I remember right.

JL: I think it’s until July. My belief is that Saturn will be in Aquarius until July of 2020, go back into Capricorn until December, late December of 2020. And then it shifts back into Aquarius.

My take on this is that this is going to be a long-term ongoing issue. The responsibility that we have, if you have a platform, if you’re speaking to people, if you’re writing content that people are consuming, I think we have a responsibility to acknowledge what’s happening and to provide what we believe to be reliable resources. We don’t have to be experts, but I do think uplifting the voices of experts is a really valuable tool right now.

I also think if you have financial resources, donating money to organizations on the ground that are supporting the vulnerable amongst us. Because I really worry about what will happen, I live in the Bay Area, when this virus hits homeless populations. What will happen in prisons, what will happen in domestic abuse shelters, who’s going to work in those places in general hospitals and how will we keep those people safe?

And again, there’s this issue of containment of this virus and how does it stay contained? It really frightens me, and I don’t mean to panic people by saying these things, but we see the spread of this COVID-19 across the world and we see how aggressive it is, and I think we need to be realistic. And if you have the financial resources to be generous, I think it’s important to be generous because we are a community. We are a local community, a global community. It’s important to be mindful and responsible within that.

TH: Yeah. And I really like that message Jessica, ’cause one of the things I’ve been hearing online when people talk about, “Oh, you’re making too big of a deal about the virus, and most people aren’t getting sick.” Or, “if you’re healthy, you don’t have to worry about it.” Well, that’s not who we’re talking about here. We’re talking about the people who do have to worry about it, and they’re very real, people really have died from this virus. Yes, it may be like the flu, but if you get the flu and you die, that’s still horrible.

JL: Well, this is what I say to those people if I may, may I? May I? Because watch me go. So I’ve got a couple of things to say. If this was like the flu, then why would Italy shut down? Why would the whole country of Italy go on quarantine? Why would airlines give people refunds if this was like the flu? Obviously, this is not like the flu. Obviously, if the economy is taking a hit, if capitalists are taking a hit, if the big players in capitalism, if governments are taking a hit, then it is much different than a flu. So that’s one thing I would say.

And the other thing is, forget the vulnerable. I don’t actually mean that, don’t forget the vulnerable, please. But let’s say those people who are saying that don’t care about people with pre-existing conditions. They don’t care about people with asthma, they don’t care about any senior citizens anywhere. Let’s say you care about none of those people.

First of all, I’m sorry that you are broken, but second of all let’s talk about nurses, let’s talk about doctors. Because this is the thing that people aren’t thinking through, is that if all of our nurses and doctors are exposed, then many of them will contract it, then they have to be quarantined and they can’t go to work. Okay, so then let’s say you have a surgery that is for your cardiovascular disease, let’s say you need a hip replacement. Let’s say you need a medication that is made in a region, maybe in China, maybe not, where people aren’t working ’cause they’re on goddamn quarantine.

So there’s this way that we are all connected, and we will see that trickle down very quickly. I think we already are, which is part of why people are rushing to buy supplies because the fear is those supplies will not be readily available anymore. And that’s because of the trickle-down effect of the impact of this.

And if there are no healthcare providers, what are we gonna do? If there’s nobody who’s able to drive the trucks that bring you your groceries, what are we gonna do? These people are thinking way too small. We need to think in this larger context. And to me, this is related to the Pluto return that is forthcoming, it is related to this Saturn stuff you and I were talking about. It’s related to the Saturn-Pluto conjunction that happened in January of 2020.

So there’s a lot of considerations, but when you are only considering yourself and your friends, or what’s happening in your town or city, you’re not thinking big enough, unfortunately. You’re gonna miss some really important data that will help you to be a better neighbor and citizen, but also healthier and more prepared in your individual life.

TH: And by Pluto return, folks, Jessica’s referring to a transit in the chart of the United States. So going back to something you said about info though, and it’s important that you seek out these more objective sources of info, so that you can be attuned to what’s going on. Because unfortunately, in the United States, your government does not have your back on that right now, so you’ve got to do your own due diligence.

You have to take personal responsibility for getting the right news yourself. Unfortunately, right now, and that’s another message of Saturn in Capricorn. You’re gonna have to grow up on that level and take responsibility yourself, which takes me into a very interesting topic that I’m thinking of with Saturn and Pluto being in Capricorn, and that’s daddy issues.

JL: Daddy issues. Me and Tony. Back together on daddy issues. Listeners of my previous webinars will know exactly what I’m talking about. Yes.

TH: Right. But sometimes we’ll say that Saturn is the father in the chart, sometimes, we say it’s the sun. And astrologers have all kinds of things that they say about that. But no matter which planet you associate with, with the father, Saturn can still bring up father issues. And we’re definitely seeing that in the world right now. I think we can definitely read into that with the way the Democratic primary is going. We had the most diverse range of candidates ever, and now we’re dwindled down to the two oldest, whitest guys.

JL: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don’t know that I would say Bernie Sanders as a Jewish dude, is the whitest of the white men that were on.

TH: Okay. I stand corrected. Yeah.

JL: Well, that’s a whole other topic. But I think you’re right. And you know, when I think of Saturn archetypally, this is one of the places where I’m gonna contradict myself ’cause I do think of it archetypally. Yeah, it’s Darth Vader. It’s deep daddy issues. It’s like everyone were the same color, everyone think the same thoughts.

TH: Giving away my personal responsibility.  We’ve heard people are out there saying, “Well, I really like Bernie’s policies, but I’m afraid” —again, fear— “I’m afraid that X, Y and Z won’t happen if he’s the President and so I’m gonna put my trust in this other guy.” Right? In Joe Biden.

JL: Tried and true. Going with the past. So Saturnian. It’s like the devil you know is the better devil, is kind of I think a lot of what this particular Democratic party conversation is like, “Do we really wanna change the system? Urghh, that’s too risky. Let’s go with what we know.” And I think with Saturn transits in general, in one’s personal life and certainly politically, it’s the wrong way of thinking of things, that’s what I always advise my clients.

I think we are meant during Saturn times to change the structure, not to just change our behavior, but to look at it quite structurally, and I think most of us can agree that the two party system that we live within and that the way that the DNC runs needs some meaningful overhaul. And that’s not like an endorsement of Sanders over Biden, although I’m absolutely, personally invested in Sanders over Biden. But that’s just an astrological take that I wanna be transparent about. I have to take it.

TH: And I’m seeing that what looks like the choice on the American, on the part of the American public. And it really was a turnaround, because it wasn’t long ago at all that they were calling Biden, this is Saturn in Pluto and Capricorn as well, they were calling his campaign dead.

Dead in the water. And he keeps saying, “I’m not dead, I’m not dead. I’m alive.” So that’s part of the whole archetype there. But those Democrats who have been voting in the primaries are making fear-based decisions, or at least a lot of them are.

JL: And young people aren’t voting.

TH: When I’m counseling a client during a Saturn time and we’re talking about a fear that they have coming up, which is pretty common under a Saturn transit or a Pluto transit, I say, “It’s better to make a fear-informed decision than a fear-based decision.” So listen to your fear. This isn’t about shutting out your fears or denying your fears or repressing your fears. Listen to your fears. Your fears might be telling you something really important. Like, if you smell smoke in the house, be afraid.

JL: Yeah. Run, run. I mean, I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s, your fears are not your enemy. It’s when you buckle in the face of fear, that it becomes a problem. And…

TH: Bending on your values for instance.

JL: Yes, yes, which is a huge lesson of this era with Saturn and Pluto in Capricorn, as whenever we have these, kind of like when those two planets come together by transit, what we have is fear-based choices to kind of compromise our humanity as a way to stay safe, which is an oxymoron. It doesn’t work. But we do it over and over again on a personal level, we do it over and over again on societal levels, to disastrous results most frequently. Am I right Tony Howard?

TH: I think that does happen some of the time. I mean, I have to agree with you on that.

So all this isn’t to say that collectively we’re all working out some daddy issues right now, and we’re gonna see the pros and cons of that, we’re gonna see people doing well with those issues, and other people not doing as well, or making what I think of as kind of sad decisions based on feeling powerless or giving their power away.

Like, “Who am I giving my power away to in this moment?” That’s a great question to ask yourself. But before we go, Jessica, ’cause we could talk forever and we should probably wrap things up here, I just wanted to give people a few useful tips on how to work with fear. So what are some of the things that you tell your clients? A client shows up really, really afraid, maybe it’s in this moment, maybe it’s not related to this moment, but just in terms of working with fear in general, and maybe especially Saturnian or Plutonian kinds of fears.

JL: First of all, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a great conversation.

TH: You are very welcome, it’s a pleasure.

JL: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I’m not scared at all. I mean, I’m scared of everything always but not this.

So I start off by saying that fear is an emotion. And when we recoil from fear, when we abandon ourself in our fear, the fear gets worse and kind of has a life of its own, and then our impulses and our assessments are less reliable. And so the first step is to stay present with the fear, to breathe into the fear.

Find it in your body, locate it in your body and be with it. And if you can only tolerate doing that for 30 seconds, great, start doing that for 30 seconds at a time. To really be present with fear allows you to start to understand, are you scared because you’re scared because you’re scared? Okay, cool, ’cause that doesn’t actually need anything but a psychological or an emotional remediation.

Are you scared of something practical? Well, if you’re scared of something practical, then what are the maybe three long-term, big picture actions you can take? And what are maybe one to three immediate actions you can take today or this week? To break it into bite-sized pieces so that you can manage it, is really useful. And also, being willing to be present with those emotions allows you to understand what is the merit of staying with those emotions.

‘Cause sometimes the best remediation to fear is to watch some comedy. Like, allow somebody to make you laugh. Sometimes you just need to get out of your own head. And sometimes you need to wash your hands or go get groceries and supplies. Maybe sometimes you need to floss your damn teeth or something, like really practical things. So it takes being willing to sit with your feelings to be able to understand what they’re trying to get you to understand about your situation.

TH: Yes, that’s great, that’s great. It ties in really well with some of the things I say, and I describe a pretty similar process. One of the things I think that allows fear to get out of control in our psyche is we just let it kind of swim around in our head, we think about it. But we don’t actually think about it enough in a way, or in the right way, because one process that can really work is to actually name the thing that you think is the worst thing that could happen in the moment. Like, name the thing that you’re really afraid of. Write it down, name it.

And then think about what you would do if that thing happened. Like, what would you actually do if that thing happened, if your worst fear came to light? And just having a plan in place can help set that part of your psyche at ease. And then doing this process Jessica is describing, is in some ways scarier for some folks, because being present with your feelings isn’t something that our parents taught us how to do usually.

It’s something you had to learn elsewhere. And yet, it’s a really important process. It’s a really important healing process. So thanks for sharing that to all the folks, Jessica. It’s really important in these times to be present with your feelings, and then also kinda take practical action. This is Saturn in Capricorn and then it’s gonna be Saturn in Aquarius. This isn’t about dreaming about it or doing creative visualizations to manifest a perfect reality. Saturn says, “Okay. That’s cool, but what are you gonna do?”

JL: Yeah, that’s right. And I love the idea of really allowing yourself to look at your worst case scenario. And I think you and I are giving really similar advice, and you listening might hear what each of us is saying and think, “Oh, well that wouldn’t work for me.” That’s cool, like, edit it. Saturn wants you to edit. Take responsibility for what does or doesn’t work for you and your nature, edit it so that you can use it. What is more Saturnian than editing for utility, right?

So I think there’s this way of speaking on this daddy issue theme that you brought up, Tony, of taking responsibility for, you don’t have to be monogamous or obedient to people who are giving you advice, people who are thought leaders. You can look at things critically and determine based on the wisdom of your own experience or your own self-knowledge, determine for yourself, goddamn it.

TH: Such an important message right now.

JL: Right? I mean, it really is. And I think it’s going to become an increasingly more important approach. So whatever of what Tony and I were talking about today, hopefully you’re taking notes, Saturn, and returning to them and adding to them and editing them, Saturn, so that you can make use of them, Saturn.

TH: Yes. And of course, we’re just talking about how to work with your fear, we’re not giving you advice about what to do if you’re in a country where you’re quarantined and you’re not feeling safe. That’s a different topic, and then you’re in a different… In need of a different skill set in that moment. We’re talking about those who have the luxury to sit and journal about their fears, right?

We’re not talking about those in very vulnerable situations who need to take really more extreme measures right now. If this is you and you’re out there and you’ve got one of these conditions that makes you more vulnerable, please take it seriously.

And please, at the risk of your friends telling you you’re crazy for not going out of the house, just stay in the house. Worst case scenario, you stay in your house and you’re healthy and well, and that’s a positive outcome, right?

JL: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I had friends who were like, “Oh my God, you’re getting emergency supplies in January.” And yeah, you know, they’re searching for them now. I personally am of the mind, is that I do those things to be prepared, but I also do those things as a way to self-soothe the voices in my head that are screaming at me that the sky is falling, basically. And so for me, action is always the antidote to anxiety. For you it might be different, but you’ve gotta find your thing. We could talk about this forever, and there’s so much to talk about. Is it okay if I mention my podcast?

TH: Please, yes.

JL: Would you mind if I do a little self-promotion here? I mean, I’m not really doing it for self-promotion as much as Episode 90 of my weekly astrology and advice show. It’s called Ghost of a Podcast. I talked about this topic differently, very differently than you and I just did Tony, but I gave some advice about how to approach this. I am strongly encouraging everyone everywhere to have quarantine supplies if you can, and to take preventative healthcare measures because it’s a pandemic, guys.

So, I think that that is good advice. And if that makes you scared, it’s okay to be a little scared of this. It is scary, but what are you gonna do next? And that’s where you have agency, where you can take action, where you can crowdsource data. Do it. Do it all, as much as you have a tolerance for. And you have the resources to do it with and then go from there.

TH: Well said. Thanks so much for joining us today Jessica. It’s been great to have you on the show. Hope to have you back again soon.

JL: Me too. Thanks for having me.

Subscribe to Jessica’s popular Ghost of a Podcast to stay connected with her work. Visit her online at

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